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News from the Keweenaw Peninsula November 27, 2001 Text and photos © 2001 Michele Anderson

Finlandia forum opens dialogue on international concerns

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Page 2: Discussion includes Israel-Palestine question

Bill Kallman of Hancock pointed out that Israel doesn't have any oil, but the U.S. backs it because it is a democratic country.

During the Oct. 30 Finlandia forum at the Finnish-American Heritage Center, Bill Kallman of Hancock discusses the founding of Israel and its democratic, capitalist system.

"Israel was founded by the United Nations, by a vote of the majority of the countries that belonged to the United Nations ... in 1947 ... right after World War II," Kallman said. "During World War II the majority of the Arab countries backed Germany. When Germany didn't win, the U.N. allowed the British to occupy Israel. They did for two years, and then the United Nations decided that it should be a separate state. And the British agreed with that ... Israel is also a capitalistic country; and capitalism is a threat in that part of the world, because capitalism is based on ... all of the people having access to money."

Kallman added that he hoped to add another side to some of the comments that had been made previously.

"I believe that the reason we're dropping bombs in Afghanistan right now is because of the events of September 11th," he said. "The biggest issue is the issue of martyrdom."

Kallman referred to the note allegedly left by one of the terrorists saying the terrorists believed they were going to heaven and were "bridegrooms." Kallman said this is a concept that is foreign to most people in the West. He asked the panel if they could shed some light on that issue.

Martin answered that he did not feel he was either pro-Israel or pro-Palestine.

"Actually I think both sides have a lot of blame," Martin said. "The quest for founding Israel was done through terrorism, and  I understand why it was formed. It was after what happened in World War II, and I actually agree with that. The problem was a lot of Palestinians were displaced, and there's many, many Palestinians who aren't going to be allowed to return. That's one thing that Israel has set their foot down on.

"What I learned in the Balkans is that as long as people aren't allowed to return to their home there's probably never going to be peace," said Martin, who recently returned from Kosovo, where he worked as an election observer.

Martin added that surrounding states have besieged Israel and made it become very defensive.

"So it's a very complex issue. You have to look at both sides," he said.

Giving Timothy Mc Veigh as an example, Martin pointed out that martyrdom is not unique to Arabs.

Tom Van Dam of Houghton, a returned Peace Corps volunteer, noted that martyrdom in Christianity was a very positive thing. He said he had seen fundamentalist extremists up close, and they really believe in a heavenly reward for martyrdom.

Shamveel Ahmed of Pakistan said the terrorists of September 11 are not martyrs from an Islamic point of view. He said the issue was related to the concept of Jihad.

Shamveel Ahmed of Pakistan, standing, expresses his views at the Oct. 30 Finlandia forum. Also pictured are, from left, Talha Mujaddidi and Adeel Ahmed (Shamveel's brother), both of Pakistan, and the Rev. Bucky Beach, moderator of the forum.

"Jihad is an act of self defense," Shamveel explained. "It has nothing to do with aggression ... When you are attacked, then you fight back. These people were in no way doing Jihad."

He added the terrorists were trained under the Taliban, who have misconstrued the teachings and interpretations of Islam.

"These people think that what they are doing is Islamic. They are misguided," Shamveel said. "Suicide is strictly prohibited. Suicide is an act of despair ... and the religion says that you must not despair in God."

"I felt strongly that the media -- especially the American media  -- not The Daily Mining Gazette -- the news media, TV channels ... were very quick to point out that these were 'Islamic extremists,' these were 'Muslims.' They didn't do their research (or) they did not bring it out in public in the right way.

Shamveel asked Kallman why, if the U.S. believes so strongly in democracy, has it supported dictatorships in countries like his own (Pakistan) or in Chile and why it supports kings in the Middle East.

"My country was ruled by a U.S.-backed dictator for 11 years," Shamveel noted, "and the damage that guy did to my country is irreversible in the next 50 years."

Kallman agreed that the U.S. is not doing the right thing by supporting these governments just so they will supply it with oil.

Jerry Huffman of Hancock said he also believed the U.S. support of dictators is a problem. However, he said he agreed with Kallman concerning the founding of Israel.

"Israel was legally established as a state and has acted most of the time in self defense against very hostile neighbors," Huffman said. "I have some problems with what appear to be Arab dictatorships trying to completely destroy the nation of Israel and basically brainwashing their people -- the people of their countries -- to go along with their agenda."

Shamveel said he wondered what gave the British Parliament the right to say Israel should be where it is and the Palestinians kicked out.

Said Martin, "What they probably should have done was to create a Palestinian state at the same time." 

Martin noted he had a problem with countries -- both in the Middle East and in the Balkans -- who look to the past and use religion to justify their aggression. He also said he had a problem with the U.S. backing regimes that violate human rights.

Adeel Ahmed, Shamveel's brother, questioned whether the present war on terrorism would be short.

"How do we know," he asked, "that there's going to be a short campaign and it's not going to stretch for eight or 10 years?"

Adeel added he believed war was not the way to end terrorism.

"You cannot end terror with terror," he said. 

Adeel noted also that the food drops in Afghanistan were only a short-term solution for the people. He said he wondered if the countries supporting the war were willing to accept the refugees it is creating.

What individuals can do for peace 

Terry Kinzel of Hancock asked the panel, "What can I do as an individual living in Hancock to help create peace?"

"Educate the masses," said Hazir, "that Islam is a religion of peace."

Ishaq added that according to Islam human beings are created for good, not evil.

"Love has to be there," Ishaq said. "I think working together, understanding each other (no matter what religion or belief or non-belief) -- that's going to bring peace."

Shamveel Ahmed's answer to Kinzel was, "The first thing you have to do is have an open mind -- an open mind towards  other cultures and other religions ... What I see as the problem is lack of information being provided to you. You just hear in your news media what they want you to hear. You don't get to hear what's really going on and what's causing whatever is  going on. So please try to get another perspective. If something's happening against the U.S., why is it happening?"

Ahmed noted that Osama bin Laden was recruited and trained by the U.S. to fight in Afghanistan (against the Soviets), but the U.S. dropped him and suddenly he had nothing to do and was not getting any more money.

"The problem is that these people (Afghanis) were put into war by the U.S., but they were not taken out of war by the U.S.," Ahmed said. "The people over there are very simple people. You can't even imagine them as terrorists. They're hospitable ... most of them are farmers ... Of course what the Taliban did further oppressed them."

He explained that other countries, including Pakistan, have always been imposing their will on the Afghanis, a mixture of many very different ethnic groups, who have never had a chance to have their say in their own government.

"When they can't rule themselves, someone else comes in and rules them," he said.

Finnish students Antti Jussila and Merina Appel both said people in Finland have been following these issues in the news although they are not involved in the war.

Appel, who lived in Pakistan for a few years, said her experience there was a very positive one.

"It is sometimes hard to believe ... that all this is going on," Appel said. "I think of my friends (there)." 

She noted her Finnish friends are very interested in the issues and more affected by the events and aftermath of September 11 than by other issues.

Postscript

On November 26, 2001, Taimoor Hazir of Pakistan sent Keweenaw Now some comments based on the turn of events in Afghanistan since the forum discussion.

Hazir said with the overthrow of the Taliban chances are the terrorists groups hiding in Afghanistan will soon be crushed. However, he noted, to think that crushing the perpetrators  in Afghanistan will bring a permanent peace is too narrow a perspective.

"I have my serious reservations that this would be the long-term solution to the problem," Hazir said. "The problem should be taken out of the roots by looking into the reason why a bunch of Muslims tend to go so wild that in the process they give away their own lives."

Hazir pointed out that there must be a reason why Osama bin Laden, who is a wealthy tycoon, resorts to activities that cause him to live in a cave rather than in the extravagant way he could afford.

"Well, it's all about the struggle which the Muslim world is facing, and the worst is that the western countries are not paying much heed," Hazir said.

Hazir noted, for example, that the media fail to spotlight innocent Muslim victims in Palestine, Kashmir and Iraq. He said many Muslims are left with feelings of alienation and strong resentment against the western powers which are ignoring the massacre of Muslims around the world -- even though these same western powers call for global peace and condemn violation of human rights.

"However," Hazir added, "at the same time, the whole Muslim world condemns those (terrorist) attacks and has promised to do all they can to bring those perpetrators to justice, as Islam is a religion of peace and such ruthless acts can not be justified  in any court of law. And those terrorists who were responsible are murderers of not just those 5,000 but the whole mankind. They have humiliated their own faith. And their efforts, which tried to redefine the whole religion of Islam, have failed and would always do so -- as Islam teaches peace and universal brotherhood."

*Editor's Note: See Ron Martin's Nov. 7 Keweenaw Now Viewpoint article on Afghanistan: "More misery in store for a longsuffering people" in three parts. Readers may also wish to visit the Editorial section of the Daily Mining Gazette Web site for a local viewpoint on the forum (Nov. 8, 2001). Letters to the editor from Janet Dalquist of Houghton (Gazette, Nov. 13, 2001) and Vern Simula of Toivola (Gazette, Nov. 24/25), have challenged that viewpoint. An excellent column written by James Cross, executive director of Michigan Tech's Center for International Education, also appeared in the Nov. 24/25  issue of the Gazette (p. 5A) and points out the many positive contributions of international students to the university and the community.